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Arguments for and against Discontinuation

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The following is an incomplete list of all arguments against Discontinuation (with a counter-argument provided by Andrew Truelove), divided into categories. If you have another argument you want to add, please don't add it directly here- please email the argument to me at andrewtruelove85@hotmail.com, and I will add it to the proper category here (along with my counter-argument).

See also Arguments for Discontinuation made by other people and Quotes related to Discontinuation.


Contents

[edit] The Belief in Discontinuation Leads to Pain (BDLP) Arguments

  • If I convert to Discontinuation, I will feel tortured for the rest of my life (because I will fear death and hate life); or at least, I won’t enjoy life anymore

Not 'tortured'- your Functional Statsis makes sure of that. You instead should accept the meaninglessness of your own life and join me in spreading Discontinuation around the world.

  • I’m not ready to give up life yet and follow Discontinuation; I’ll keep living life, then convert later if I change my mind

So you choose to continue your meaningless life, thus allowing millions of babies to be damned to death in the meanwhile- just because you’re afraid to give up your bullshit life now and not later? That’s selfish and stupid.

  • Your ideas will lead to violence, as some or all Discontinuists will kill and torture people in order to prevent procreation

Nihilism does open that possibility (as Nietzsche said). Some who convert to Discontinuation will kill others to prevent them from procreating helpless children, I'm sure. But I will always stand for voluntary, non-violent methods, never hurting anyone or telling anyone to kill anyone else, and every Discontinuist will know that.

  • Discontinuation, at the end of the day, could be wrong. And it's foolish to bet the existence of the species, of 6.5 billion humans today and of countless others in the future, on something we cannot be utterly, completely, ironclad, 100%, dead sure of.

This fear of faith is common, but not something to be afraid of. It basically boils down to the classic 'I’m not 100% sure of anything, so I won’t act to stop any processes I see, because there’s a 1% or less chance that they’re good in the end, or that they don’t really exist.' That bullshit is the same reason the US didn’t get involved in the Holocaust until too late- 'all evidence indicated there’s a massacre going on, but we won’t go ahead until we’re 100% sure, as opposed to just 99.999%sure'- thus, tons of people were killed by their hesitation.

You’re the same way. 'All evidence points to the fact that life is meaningless, death is eternal, and thus it's better to not be born- but I'll sit by idly while millions are born, because there’s a 1% chance or less that I'm wrong.' That's apathetic, bullshit rationalization.

To sum up: you fear sacrificing the human race, but what value is the human race? We all know life is meaningless, and death is final. The human race isn't worth enough for you to 'bet' it. It is as worthless as the garbage you throw away every day. Sadly, you can’t see that, because you find meaning in creating the garbage.

[edit] The I Believe in Meaning (IBIM) arguments

'Meaning': not only does it not exist in our universe, but it also cannot be imagined or defined. Meaning is a non-existant, non-imaginable thing that the TCHB craves. No possible reality/pursuit/action you can think up in your wildest imagination would be 'meaningful' to the TCHB. Thus, the only thing a TCHB wants is to never have been born.

  • I don’t think human life is meaningless, because I believe in religion/supernaturalism/spirituality

Convert to Atheism by seeing the truth about those false, delusional beliefs, then convert to Discontinuation.

  • I don't believe in nihilism. We can create meaning for ourselves. I don't want to sound too self-helpy, but I don't think we should go to the other extreme and say everything is meaningless.

"That is the height of dishonesty; you have reached the peak. What you are actually saying is "we can delude ourselves." ... Think about the definition of reality. Logically, there is ultimate meaning or there is not ultimate meaning... I have no problem with self-delusion; it's none of my business how others want to live, but I think it's clear that there (either) is or there is not meaning." - mgton on the Internet Infidels Discussion Boards.

"Changing definitions sounds like another tactic to divert oneself. X doesn't exist, so we redefine X so that now X is something that does exist? Like saying I'm a theist because I believe in the universe, and some people define God as "the universe". I guess I could even say I have faith in God, (then)." - Unbeatable of the Internet Infidels Discussion Boards.

  • I find meaning in life through enjoyment

Recognize that enjoying your life is actually meaningless and worthless, and the only thing you can do in life with any meaning is to not damn any future humans to the same eternal death ahead of you.

  • I find meaning in life through charity

'Making the world a better place' and 'enjoying life' don't mean anything. You're going to die and go nowhere, and so are all the people whose lives you 'make better.'

  • I find meaning in passing things down to my children

This argument is what I call the Children Enrich our Lives Argument (CELA). You seem to say 'kids keep society going, and society is interesting. Kids are interesting for me and others.' You are blind and selfish. You drag more humans into the world just so that they can enrich your meaningless life.

[edit] The Immortality arguments

  • Science will one day lengthen human lifespans, and that’s immortality

Those who say this are usually Transhumanists or the like (David Pearce is another type of person who claims this). Here's what I argue:

The extension of the human life span that science has and will continue to create does not equal 'immortality.'

Even if humans ever were able to live until the earth becomes uninhabitable through natural calamity, it does not equal immortality. Even if humans survived that calamity and lived on some other planet/moon until the day the universe ends, it does not equal immortality.

Science will never make 'forever' in terms of human life possible; if you disagree, you are an Achievement Believer.

Science (or rather, in this case, pseudoscience) has become another religion, and the messiah is eternal life for humans and for the universe we live in. And so you live each day thinking 'well, eternal life hasn’t come yet, but- surely eternal life is coming soon! Come, eternal life, come!' Science has become just another religion waiting for a messiah that will never come.

The extinction of the human species is, 99% of actual scientists agree, inevitable.

  • Science will one day invent time travel- thus, we can live forever

So basically, Transhumanists and the like are resting their hopes in three bullshit pipe dreams:

    • The extension of human life to infinity
    • The extendion of the universe's life to infinity
    • Time travel

Good luck with that bullshit.

  • Science will one day make it so we will all clone ourselves as often as needed- cloning means immortality

Let me explain why cloning isn't equal to immortality.

All consciousness that we have is a function of our specific brain and the neurons and whatnot inside it. Even if you can 'clone' a human by creating a new body and brain with all the same ideas, feelings, memories, beliefs, etc. in that brain does not make the original dying brain immortal. The clone is just a copy; we are the original. I am a brain that is going to die; a copy of my brain doesn't mean I 'live on.'

  • After I die, people will remember me, and that’s immortality

Being remembered is not equal to literal immortality in which you live on forever.

  • After I die, my achievements will live on, both through physical things and through mental memes in the minds of others- and that’s immortality

Immortality means that you physically and mentally live on forever. Your definition is a misuse of the term. Just because future humans continue to use your creations and memes doesn’t mean you 'live on' in a literal sense.

  • After I die, my genes will live on, and that’s immortality

Immortality means that you physically and mentally live on forever. Your definition is a misuse of the term. Just because your genes live on doesn’t mean that you literally do.

[edit] The Accusations about Believer (AAB) Arguments

  • If there's no meaning, why do you care about other humans (the ones you want to save from death)?

Just because there's no meaning doesn't mean I don't care about the pain and suffering of humans who are brought into this meaningless universe. I want to stop this inhumane cycle of reproduction.

I can value humans without believing in meaning; the two are not codependent. However, I admit that my value of humans (resulting in me wanting to keep them from experiencing life and death) is just as subjective as your value of humans (resulting in you wanting to bring humans into the world). Refer to the last argument on this page for my answer to that.

'Purpose' or 'goal' isn't the same as 'meaning.' My one goal in life is to Discontinue the human race, and I will spend my life working for that. But that's not 'meaning'- 'meaning' to me means

    • a.) doing things in life that aren't just going to be wiped away when you die (which they all will)
    • b.) doing things in life that aren't just Diversions and pointless pursuits towards temporary happiness

So my life isn't 'meaningful' to me; it's purposeful, but not meaningful.

  • You want to Discontinue human life because you are incapable of enjoying life and thus you don’t want anyone else to have it

Human life is terrible not because of any suffering in life (though that sucks) but because of the eternal 'blinking out' at the end of it.

I hope you understand the little Suzy story: Suzy is born into a priviliged life, and she lives in her parents mansion all her life. She feels no pain or suffering, and dies as fulfilled as humanly possible. Guess what: her great life means nothing now that she's dead, because all her memories are lost and she is eternally dead.

Also, I’m not the only one who can’t enjoy human life: There are millions of people- a minority, but still- who hate the life they're living. Most of the world's population lives in awful conditions (starvation, disease, oppression- and that's just in East St. Louis). Although I'm not arguing that life's pain is the best reason to not give birth, I am pointing this out so you can see that, for many Homo Sapiens, they're lives are way too shitty to say that they 'outweigh the shittiness of death.' These starving and miserable folks can't say 'Death sucks, but life is so good it pays for it and then some.' As for people from industrialized countries who live priviliged lives- you guys love life easily. None of the billions of people living in shit in the world can agree with me here, because they don't have a computer (or shoes).

So my argument is: even if a minority of people's lives are so good they outweigh the shittiness of death, most Homo Sapiens lives aren't, therefore their existence is unfair and should be prevented.

Even if you don't live in a shitty third world country, life has the potential to really suck. Millions of people in non-shitty countries live painful lives (physically and mentally) because of diseases, poverty, depression, etc. etc. Some experience deaths so terrible that you can't possibly say they justify life (burned alive in a car; tortured to death).

And millions more, who also live in 'good' conditions, are like me- they are TCHBs, so they despise this meaningless life that can never fulfill them. They and I aren't like you dogs chasing your tails- we require meaning in our actions, and since this reality cannot fulfill that, we TCHBs desire to never have been born.

Sure, we are a small group, but we do exist. Don't you have compassion for us, and wish we'd never been born? Is it unfair for us TCHBs that we can't enjoy our meaningless lives enough to accept death as 'worth the price?' We TCHBs are like people who pay for a bus ride without being driven anywhere.

I argued all the above to negate the Life is Worth the Price argument- not everyone's life makes death an acceptable cost.

  • You are insane

Yes and no- no, in that I’m not delusional. Yes, in that 'insane' to you (someone with the societal mindset) refers to any non-societal thoughts and actions, so yes, in your (incorrect) societal mindset, I’m 'insane.' But it probably takes a somewhet 'insane' man to both see and accept the truth about society and existence.

  • Nihilism is just for young folks who don’t yet appreciate life. You’ll change later as you grow up and enter society.

Thank you so much for perfectly proving my point: it often takes a young person to see the truth, which is then destroyed as he enters the great bullshit parade of society and that truth contradicts it and gets in the way of his bullshit life. He has mortgages to pay, tax forms to fill out, and a job to go to- he doesn't have time for the TRUTH.

But I'm different. I figured out the truth in my youth as do most people, but I am nver going to enter the bullshit parade. I am going out now into the world and spreading the truth instead of 'growing up and having stuff to do' and thus forgetting the truth.

Unlike you, I'm never going to act upon my vestigial human instinct and unthinkingly have kids, thus damning them to eternal death.

You argue 'Nihilism is for young people who don't yet understand the greatness of the bullshit societal world that we older folks have discovered. Just quiet your little mouth.'

  • You only argue your point so that others will kill themselves/waste their lives with you, and thus, if it turns out you were wrong, you will not be the only one who killed himself/wasted his life and thus missed out on life

Your theory makes perfect sense, but it is wrong.

I am 100% convinced of my being right, and so I have no desire to enjoy life. And even if I got to my death bed and realized that I was wrong (keep in mind I am 100% certain now, so this is, to me, an impossible story), I wouldn't regret I didn't party and have sex and such. Why? Because all your partying and having sex and other meaningless actions are about to dissapear like tears in the rain when you die.

And if there was an afterlife (again, impossible story to me), why does enjoying life on earth matter when we'll all have an eternity to enjoy utter bliss? Of course, there is no afterlife, so see the paragraph above this one.

  • You are just depressed- seek help

Let me tell you a little about myself:

I am in my early 20s. I am not 'depressed.' I don't have Metaphysical Angst Periods in my life anymore. Sure, I had them when I was a teen, as most people do. But I got over them. And right now, my life is fine- no suffering or want. I have the capability (phsyically, mentally, financially) to have a pretty good life- good job, good food, plenty of Diversions to enjoy. I am not a depressed teen, nor am I suffering or wanting in any way.

So to those who attribute my beliefs to that mentality, you are wrong.

Instead, I'm like you when you get outraged at starvation in Africa. Are you currently starving? No. Are you just mad at something else, and releasing that anger at starvation? No. If you wanted, you could just say 'fuck the starving' and live your pleasant lives. But you don't, because you have humanity and thus want to end their starvation. In the same way, I could live a nice little meaningless life like you instead of feeliing sympathy for future people who are trapped in life. But I do feel sympathy, and I'm doing something about it because it outrages me that the injustice goes on.

  • If you hate life, why not kill yourself? I mean, if you live for a long time, you will come to love life, and thus death will be worse for you

No need; I can’t ever become attached to this meaningless life of Diversions.

  • Why haven’t you killed yourself yet, if you want to end our species?

This is the question that I (and VHEMTers) get asked most often.

When the exterminator wants to kill all the roaches in your house, does he kill himself first? No- he has to live to exterminate the roaches. Killing himself would result in fewer roaches dying.

Of course, this metaphor is very flawed (and will probably be quoted out of context), because a.) neither I nor any Discontinuist will ever kill a human for our cause like the exterminator kills roaches for his cause. We don't 'kill' people, we attempt to Discontinue the species through non-violent means. and b.) I don't see humans as 'roaches' by any means.

I will never procreate, of course. I may one day commit suicide, but only if everyone in the world has converted to Discontinuation. I'm not ready to leave my meaningless life and fall into the bottomless abyss until I've Discontinued the entire human race.

[edit] The Death’s Not so Bad (DNSB) Arguments

  • Never being born is worse than being born and then dying; non-existence is boring and uneventful

No, by being born you are brought out of nonexistence, given a brief taste of existence, and then forced to return to nonexistence- for no reason whatsoever. And as you transition from existance to non-existance, you feel sad and scared, and wish that you'd never been brought into existance in the first place.

Think of it this way:

    • stage 1: non existance
    • stage 2: life- you feel pain and joy during this, but then, at the end of it, you realize you wish you were never taken from stage 1- moving from stage 2 to 3 is unnecessary, tragic pain and fear. stage 2 is like taking your dog to the park for two seconds (literally), then yanking him back into the car and driving home. The dog thinks 'why was I ever given a glimpse of the park? That was cruel.' (obviously dogs don't think in sentences, but...)
    • stage 3: non existance

When you are actually on your death bed, you will see how terrifying non-existence is- but only then, when death lies before you like an unavoidable abyss. Then you will understand, and you will wish you’d never been born (and that you'd never procreated).

Life is more 'interesting' than non-existence, but death is more horrible than anything in life. One day, you are going to blink out of consciousness forever. You will never think another thought or experience another thing. Eternal death is a horrible, frightening, gut-wrenching horror that will one day occur for you and your kids and all other human beings.

I have a metaphor I use for human life: The Roller Coaster

Image:Life.JPG

When you give birth to a child, you are putting their thinking, feeling personality into a brain that, based on its nature/nurture, is destined to make certain 'choices' (there is no free will) that will take the individual on a painful, tragic, horrifying ride. At the end of the ride, the car rolls off the tracks and into an abyss. In this metaphor, the coaster car is the brain, the person strapped into it is the conscious thinking/feeling personality that is caused by the brain, the ride is life, and the abyss is death.

  • Death is not scary

You probably had Metaphysical Angst when you were young. However, your FS kicked in, and you grew up to be a 'productive' person, including having kids. Your FS helped you to delude yourself and make the mistake of damning another human being instead of figuring out what Zapffe (the philosopher who was neither an 'adolescent' nor 'mentally-ill') and I already have.

You are what I'll call a Functional Stasis Victim. An FSV is victim of FS, the evolutionary trait that prevents him from worrying (because worrying prevents procreation, thus FS favored the first conscious humans and allowed them to pass FS on).

You ask 'why fear death?' Because human life is merely the creating of our conscious brains so that we can live temporarily and then blink our of existence forever. The fact that you can't even see that death is bad and scary is because a.) society reaffirms this lie when you see others and they don't fear death and you think 'death isn't so bad- I'm going to go divert myself like everyone else', and b.) your Functional Stasis.

For anyone who argues that death is not scary, I would argue that if you were to point a gun at his/her head, they would soil themselves, cry, and BEG you not to send them to the horrifying abyss that they know lies beyond the grave.

  • Death is not so bad that it negates life (or justifies not giving birth to life). Death is the price we pay for being allowed to live a great life- and it’s worth the price. (the Life is Worth the Price argument).

You haven't acknowledged that there are millions of people- a minority, but still- who hate the life they're living. Most of the world's population lives in terrible conditions (starvation, disease, oppression- and that's just in East St. Louis ). You can see that, for many Homo Sapiens, their lives are way too awful to say that it 'outweighs the shittiness of death.' These starving and miserable folks can't say 'Death sucks, but life is so good it pays for it and then some.'

You people from industrialized countries who live priviliged lives love life easily. None of the billions of people living in shit in the world can agree with me here, because they don't have a computer (or shoes).

So my argument is: even if a minority of people's lives are so good they outweigh the shittiness of death, most Homo Sapiens lives aren't, therefore their existence is unfair and should be prevented. Your saying that all Homo Sapiens have great lives that negate death is bullshit.

Even if you don't live in a shitty third world country, life has the potential to really suck. Millions of people in non-shitty countries live painful lives (physically and mentally) because of diseases, poverty, depression, etc. etc. Some experience deaths so terrible that you can't possibly say they justify life (burned alive in a car; tortured to death).

And millions more, who also live in 'good' conditions, are like me- they are TCHBs, so they despise this meaningless life that can never fulfill them. They and I aren't like you dogs chasing your tails- we require meaning in our actions, and since this reality (nor any imagined reality) cannot fulfill that, we TCHBs desire to never have been born. Sure, we are a small group, but we do exist. Don't you have compassion for us, and wish we'd never been born? Is it unfair for us TCHBs that we can't enjoy our meaningless lives enough to accept death as 'worth the price?' We TCHBs are like people who pay for a bus ride without being driven anywhere.

I argued all the above to negate the Life is Worth the Price argument- not everyone's life makes death an acceptable cost.

  • Of all the people I’ve seen on their death beds, none of them were scared (except one or two); this proves that death isn’t scary

That's because all the dying folks you saw probably believed in religion or in spirituality, and thus deluded themselves from the horrorible (and horror-ful) reality they were in and the death they faced.

When Atheists are on our death beds, we will say: 'I'm terrified! I have no bullshit to comfort me!' All Atheists who deny they will be that way are mistaken- they will be in that situation, but don't realize it yet. Man are they in for a surprise!


  • Death is not scary or bad, because, once you’re dead, you won’t care that you aren’t alive- because you’re dead and unable to think

This cute little ancient Greek rationalization doesn't work on 99% of the world's population, including me.

I won't be unhappy, or suffering, when I'm dead- I never thought I would be. No, the tragedy isn't that I'll be suffering or sad when I'm dead, the tragedy is that I will be nothing when I'm dead- no feelings, no thoughts, nothing. Non-existence is worse than any suffering; that's why death is a terrifying abyss.

As a human, I am a three-pound organic computer with instincts and self-consciousness (my brain, also known as 'me'). The one thing that I fear most of all is being unplugged (death). Therefore death is a terrifying abyss to me, and for that reason it was cruel and foolish for my parents to create me (the computer)- if I'd never been created, I couldn't fear being taken apart; my existence is tragic.

Even though it’s true that I and others won’t be able to hate being dead/miss being alive when we’re dead (because we are dead and thus unconscious), I can still say that it sucks that I’m going to be dead some day. I won’t be able to dislike being dead, but I can dislike life while I live it because I know that death nullifies it; also, I can see the utter destruction of myself and others as tragic.

  • It’s good that people live and then die, because it’s only if something eventually is destroyed that we appreciate it

Most people believe in the afterlife. They believe they will see deceased Uncle Bob again, and live with him forever in Heaven/Paradise/whatever. Yet they love and appreciate him while he's alive.

This 'argument' doesn't even justify a response.

  • I am an Atheist who accepts evolution, meaninglessness, and the lack of an afterlife as fact, and yet I don’t think death is bad. Your desire for meaningful life (as in, life that’s not followed by eternal extinction) is not realistic or atheistic- let go of desire for meaning, 'meaning' being a spiritual lie just like religion.

It's one thing to recognize that all religions were made up by man in order to fulfill his need for meaning, and that meaning doesn't really exist. It's another thing to deny that you have this need for non-existent meaning (all conscious humans do). You have a need for meaning and an afterlife, whether you admit it or not, and that makes human life tragic and cruel. To bring a human brain that desires meaning into a meaningless universe is just sadistic and ridiculous and pointless.

It's like the Bible says: "God hath put eternity into mens hearts." Except it wasn't that 'God' put 'eternity' into our 'hearts'- it's that the consciousness that we evolved long ago gives us the desire for eternity- we know that, when we die, all our work and feelings and memories dissapear forever, so we want more than anything to keep going with our progress and our enjoyment forever.

Most atheists past and present argue this same argument (including Nietzsche and other Existentialists). But an atheist who claims he doesn't crave meaning because it doesn't exist is like a cancer victim who claims he doesn't crave a cure for cancer because it doesn't exist. "Gee, a cure for cancer is the one thing that would save me and make my life worth living, but since it doesn't exist, I guess I'd better pretend like I don't care the slightest about it and live the rest of my painful, short life without it."

We are all Metaphysical Cancer Patients, and we all are desparate for the metaphysical cancer cure (whether we admit it or not).

  • Life without afterlife (as in, followed by eternal death) is not pointless

I disagree: I argue that life is pointless because it is non-eternal. There's no point in existing for a second then dying forever. It is absurd, but you are so full of bullshit and Functional Stasis that you can't see it.

It's like the Bible says: "God hath put eternity into mens hearts." Except it wasn't that 'God' put 'eternity' into our 'hearts'- it's that the consciousness that we evolved long ago gives us the desire for eternity- we know that, when we die, all our work and feelings and memories dissapear forever, so we want more than anything to keep going with our progress and our enjoyment forever.

  • I believe Discontinuation argues that people shouldn't be born because they will then fear death, and that’s cruel; but if people die but aren’t afraid of death, it’s not tragic that they were born and then died. And most people are just that- they don’t fret death.

That's not correct. See, you are assuming that death is only tragic to those who fear it. Wrong. Death is tragic both for those who know the truth and for those who don't know the truth.

See, all humans, whether they fear death or not, are going nowhere when they die. Many people are 'good', likable, and even loveable- you admire them and their personalities. Now, let's say John (a loveable man) is about to die. He isn't afraid- John believes in Jesus.

But John is really going nowhere when he dies.

This is tragic- good people are born every day who don't deserve to be thrown out at the end of their lives- they deserve immortality. But that's not real, so the only thing we can do to prevent good people from being thrown away like garbage is to never give birth to them in the first place.

My metaphor I use is this: 'good', loveable people are like Beautiful Dolls- that will one day be thrown into a fire and be destroyed. That's tragic. Fear of death isn't the only tragedy- existence is. Existence of Beautiful Dolls is the tragedy, even if they don't know they go nowhere when thrown into the fire (when they die).

STOP MAKING BEAUTIFUL DOLLS.

[edit] Other arguments

  • If life is meaningless, what difference does it make whether humans exist or not?

"Because if they don't exist they won't suffer. Whilst everyone here has a computer, and therefore probably aren't lacking food/shelter, the vast majority of human beings who have existed throughout the last several 100,000 years have probably suffered terribly. It is obvious that the net human suffering far outweighs the net human pleasure.

... I strongly disagree with the old cliched fallacy that a nihilist can't argue for anything because nothing has any point." - t.w. of the Internet Infidels Discussion Boards.

  • You argue that life is pain and tragedy, and thus we shouldn't have kids. But I'm a good person with enough money and intelligence to raise my future kids in a way that will prevent them from feeling pain and tragedy in life. Thus, why shouldn't I have kids?

If you can be 100% certain your kids will not feel pain or tragedy in life, then by all means have kids- but no one can be sure of that. Every year in America (one of the least tragic places to live), 1500 teens die in car accidents. 41,000 Americans die in car accidents each year. 20,000 Americans commit suicide annually, and 16,000 Americans are murdered in a given year. On September 11th, 3000 Americans were horribly killed, some of whom fell 5 stories out of a burning building.

What do all these humans have in common? Their parents probably imagined that they would protect their little babies from all pain and sadness in life. Problem is, no matter how good a parent you are (and most people aren't even good parents), shit will happen- and when it does, it's your (the parents) fault. You can't protect your offspring from tragedy before they leave home, and you certainly can do no such thing once they leave to go live sucky adult life.

Also, keep in mind that even if you do miraculously manage to protect your child from all pain and tragedy in his/her life, at the end of his/her life he/she will die and rot for eternity. I hope you understand the little Suzy story: Suzy is born into a priviliged life, and she lives in her parents mansion all her life. She feels no pain or suffering, and dies as fulfilled as humanly possible. Guess what: her great life means nothing now that she's dead, because all her memories are lost and she is eternally dead.

It is utterly sick and sadistic to create a human being, because once you do you have created a 3 pound organic computer that is beautiful in its complexity and self-awareness and tragic in its undeserved destiny to die for eternity. Human brains don't deserve to live in this unconscious universe. As Zapffe said, 'human life is not meant for humans!'

  • If you care so much about ending the existence of conscious humans, why don't you care about the possibility of animals on earth later evolving consciousness after we're gone? Don't you care about them?

Absolutely.

If there ever comes a day when the whole world has decided to Discontinue the human race (of course, that day will never, ever come), we would then have to figure out how to prevent any other species of animal on earth from evolving the curse of consciousness when we are gone.

Keep in mind that it's not likely that another species will ever evolve human-like consciousness, despite what you see in 'Planet of the Apes.' Many scientists (and me) believe that consciousness was just a once-in-a-universal-lifetime freak occurence, and will never happen again on earth (and has never occured on any other planet in the universe).

But theoretically, if that day ever came, we would have to figure out some ways to help make future consciousness even less likely. I really have no idea how we would do that, apart from killing all life on earth. To me, that would be ideal.

VHEMTers take note: I know that what I just wrote above is very unpleasant for you. However, keep two things in mind: a.) the day in the future I speak of will never come, despite the efforts of both our groups; thus, let's not worry about it. b.) if that day ever did come (which it won't, but theoretically), your group would also have to be concerned about the possibility of human-like consciousness later evolving in another species. Think about it: I don't want that to occur because then another species would be metaphysically as cursed as we are, and you wouldn't want that to happen either because if another species becomes as smart as humans, they will form civilization like we did and then set about tearing down forests and oppressing/slaughtering other animal species to fill their desires.

  • Since being a Discontinuist means that you choose to never have children, any people predisposed to believe such nonsense will be quickly eliminated from the gene pool.

People with the consciousness to see that life is a meaningless death trap for the human brain have already been 99% eliminated from the gene pool.

See, early in human history, human consciousness (I believe) lead people to have Metaphysical Angst, just as they do now. Metaphysical Angst is a consequence of being as conscious as we are (notice how even the chimps, our closest relatives, don't fret death or meaninglessness). So, in order to counteract this Metaphysical Angst, I believe that some genes we humans have cover up our consciousness by keeping us from worrying about (or even thinking about, 99% of the time) death and meaninglessness.

Please see the Functional Stasis page of my wiki to see this argument. Functional Stasis is my name for these theoretical 'blindness' genes.

I mean, think about it- most people in the world shuffle on like sheep without thinking about death or caring about meaning. Even most 'intelligent' folks don't worry about it or almost ever think about it. Reason: the strong Functional Stasis genes you and all humans inherited give you the ability to 'not worry, be happy.' Thus, you are able to focus on succeeding in the bullshit parade of society, and thus you have children, passing your Functional Stasis genes down to your kids.

You are right- evolution has already probably doomed my movement, because Functional Stasis is so much stronger than logic and obvious truths.

I hope to present the FS idea to Dawkins and have him check it out. Then we'll know for sure if I'm right (after years of research, that is).

  • You'll never convince all 6.5 billion people on earth to Discontinue the human race. Just give up.

Almost certainly not- but I'll convince all those I can. If I convince millions to not have kids, that means I've saved many millions of humans from being born. That's significant- it's not 6.5 billion, but it's a lot.

  • You say that the second-biggest reason to Discontinue the human race is that life is painful for most humans on earth. Prove it.

It takes an idiot to not be able to see that life on earth is full of pain and misery, but still, I'll try my best to convince you of this.

First off, let's discuss the past history of the Homo Sapiens species: by studying history, it is undeniable that the vast majority of humans in our short earthly history have suffered terribly. It wasn't until the 20th century that, thanks to the Industrial Revolution of 1850 and the Scientific Revolution lasting from the 1500s to the 1800s, mankind was able to truly protect himself from disease, famine, the weather, and other natural calamities. Thus, life in the past 100 years (especially the past 50 years) has been unbelievably comfortable and non-miserable when compared to all 6,000 years of civilization before it and the hundreds of thousands of years of Homo Sapiens existance before that.

Secondly, let's take a look at the present state of the world. Keep in mind that the paragraph above applies only to industrialized, developed countries: most of the world has not yet benefitted from the scientific and technological advancements of the last 100 years. For example: half the world is malnourished despite the fact that food production technologies have progressed so much in the past 40 years that there is now more than enough food to feed everyone on earth! Another example: 80 percent of the world's population (4.6 billion people) still use folk medicine as their primary source of health care! ('Witch doctor, I have a headache and internal bleeding.' 'Swallow two baby lizards and call me in the morning.')

Check out these present-day statistics about the world's 6.5 billion human population:

  • 80% of the people live in substandard housing.
  • 76% of the people have electricity, but most of them use it only at night and only for lighting their homes.
  • 67% of the people are illiterate.
  • 50% of the people are malnourished.
  • 33% of the people lack safe drinking water.
  • 7% of the people have internet access.
  • 1% of the people have a college education.

To deny the suffering of past and present Homo Sapiens proves how isolated and diverted a life you live.

  • You say that the third-biggest reason to Discontinue the human race is that humans are evil. Prove it.

Again, it takes an idiot to not be able to see that humans are disposed to violence, selfishness, and evil, but still, I'll try to convince you of this.

To argue the idea that mankind is evil, I will point out that our world is terminally infested with corrupt power structures and governments. To my count, there are at least 7 different categories of humans that are full of corruption and 'evil':

  1. Governments
  2. Police forces
  3. Medical industry
  4. Corporations (big businesses)
  5. Media
  6. Religious organizations (especially the Catholic church)
  7. Criminals: both street thugs and blue collar criminals

If you have a child, he/she will either a.) end up being a corrupt person or b.) end up being one of the majority who is oppressed by the corrupt people. So why have kids?

I don't see how anyone can deny that we live in a cold, lonely, tragic world. Personally, my life has always been and will always be just one kick in the balls after another.

  • Your value of humans (resulting in you wanting to save them from the pain of life and death) is just as subjective as my value of humans (resulting in me wanting to bring them into the world).

My subjective values, unlike yours, are 100% based on the horrible reality of human existence. Your subjective values are based (and most atheists admit this) on delusions and other consoling lies. Thus, it goes without saying that my subjective values are superior to yours, because yours are delusional and mine are factual and logical.

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