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http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/6b0e8115f3403f97/d572bc1db581f114?#d572bc1db581f114

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/d572bc1db581f114 {{{

backspace <sawireless2...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1faffe29-d566-4514-a696-
404c72b6e...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 11, 2:40 pm, Ron O <rokim...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 6:15 am, backspace <sawireless2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
>> > "...It contrasts with the evolutionary mechanism, natural selection, a
>> > non-random selection process in which the tendency of alleles to
>> > become more or less widespread in a population over time is due to the
>> > alleles' effects on adaptive and reproductive success..."

>> > What would a random selection process look like?

>> Genetic drift.  Look up things like founder effects and neutral
>> theory.

>> Playing word games when you don't know what you are talking about has
>> to be pretty degrading for you.  What is your definition of a
>> selection process?  Both genetic drift and selection contribute to the
>> evolution of a population, do you deny that?  Playing word games won't
>> get you anywhere.  What you need is an alternative that you can go out
>> and determine if it even exists.

> I am talking about the word "selection" in the English language which
> means a decision. What has
> a decision by a human got to do with the words drift and genetic?

No, "selection" does not automatically imply decision by an intelligent
agent.  An egg sorting machine selects the correct destination for each egg
based on its size, for example.  Selection, particularly in a statistical
sense, simply means that the process is non-random.  Here's an analogy that
illustrates the difference between natural selection (a non-random process)
and genetic drift (a random process)

Consider a scenario in which a sheet of hard plastic containing a
triangular hole is placed over a box.  Blocks of various shapes are then
dropped onto the sheet.  Those blocks that are triangular, and of a
suitable size, can slip through the hole.  No other blocks can get through.  
In the end, the box will contain only triangular blocks: triangles have
been selected by the process.

Consider a scenario identical to the above, except that instead of hard
plastic with a triangular hole there is a long, soft plastic sheet that
comes off a roll on one side of the box and gets gathered up on another
roll on the other side of the box.  Blocks of various shapes are then
dropped onto the sheet.  Some blocks will encounter a weak spot in the
plastic, and will rip through to fall into the box.  Other blocks will
encounter stronger parts of the plastic, and will bounce away to be
discarded.  When the process is done, the box will contain a random mixture
of blocks of various sizes and shapes. 
<pre>
}}}


=== post 12 ===
<pre>
backspace <sawireless2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:78184ce9-d519-4ffd-8f51-d9b2f6487ab2@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> On Dec 11, 5:17 pm, Mujin <umwin...@seesee.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
>> backspace <sawireless2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:1faffe29-d566-4514-a696-
>> 404c72b6e...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

>> > On Dec 11, 2:40 pm, Ron O <rokim...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> On Dec 11, 6:15 am, backspace <sawireless2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
>> >> > "...It contrasts with the evolutionary mechanism, natural
>> >> > selection, a non-random selection process in which the tendency
>> >> > of alleles to become more or less widespread in a population
>> >> > over time is due to the alleles' effects on adaptive and
>> >> > reproductive success..."

>> >> > What would a random selection process look like?

>> >> Genetic drift.  Look up things like founder effects and neutral
>> >> theory.

>> >> Playing word games when you don't know what you are talking about
>> >> has to be pretty degrading for you.  What is your definition of a
>> >> selection process?  Both genetic drift and selection contribute to
>> >> the evolution of a population, do you deny that?  Playing word
>> >> games won't get you anywhere.  What you need is an alternative
>> >> that you can go out and determine if it even exists.

>> > I am talking about the word "selection" in the English language
>> > which means a decision. What has
>> > a decision by a human got to do with the words drift and genetic?

>> No, "selection" does not automatically imply decision by an
>> intelligent agent.  An egg sorting machine selects the correct
>> destination for each egg based on its size, for example.  Selection,
>> particularly in a statistical sense, simply means that the process is
>> non-random.  Here's an analogy that illustrates the difference
>> between natural selection (a non-random process) and genetic drift (a
>> random process)

> You are confusing patterns with designs,

No, *you* are confusing patterns with designs.  In fact, the confusion of
pattern and design appears to be the entire basis of your objection to
evolution; all else seems to be rationalization.

> we have been through this.
> See http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com  "Selection" implies will and
> motive, it is a word we use when we try to say that there was any sort
> of motive or will to make or allow something to happen.

Selection used in the vernacular sense does typically imply motive.  
However, selection is a neutral word when used in its statistical sense.

> The waves "sorting" the sand is a pattern not a design and thus our
> intent with "sorting" is clear in the context that we use it.
> "Selection" though has a more strong will, motive intent than
> "sorting" which is why the word is not available to you given your
> premises. As linguist list said "You can't deny your cake and then
> proceed to eat it too!"

You *really* need to learn more about the ways in which words used as
technical terms can diverge in meaning from the same word used in the
vernacular. 

}}}


NaturalSelectionAsAnonRandomSelectionProcess

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