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BOLD revert discuss

The BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD) is a proactive method of reaching consensus here at Scratchpad. It can sometimes be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward, and help towards breaking deadlocks. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see it as a challenge, so be considerate and patient

Bold editing is a fundamental principle of Scratchpad. No editor is more welcome to make a positive contribution than you are. When in doubt, edit! Similarly, if you used the article’s talk page because you were unsure, and it has had no response for a few days, go ahead and make your edit. Sometimes other editors are busy, or nobody is watching the article. An edit will either help get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the article — either one is good.

Revert an edit if it is not an improvement, and it cannot be immediately fixed by refinement.[1] It is not the intention of SP:BRD to encourage reverting. When reverting, be clear of your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed. Look at the article’s edit history and its talk page to see if a discussion has begun. If not, you may begin one.

Discuss the edit, and the reasons for the edit, on the article’s talk page. When the discussion has achieved mutual understanding, attempt a new edit that will be acceptable to all participants in the discussion.

General overview

BRD1

It is often hard to find out who to talk with to gain consensus. By making a bold edit you attract the attention of people who are genuinely interested in a page, and have it on their watchlist. You can then discuss your issues with them. Compare Scratchpad:Consensus.

  • When to use:
While editing a particular page that has many editors discussing with little to no progress being made, or when an editor’s concerns are not addressed on the talkpage after a reasonable amount of effort.
  • How to proceed:
Discover the Most Interested Persons, and reach a compromise/consensus with each, one by one.
  1. BE BOLD, and make what you currently believe to be the optimal change. Any change will do, but it is easier and wiser to proceed based on your best effort. Your change might involve re-writing, rearranging, adding, or removing information.
  2. Wait until someone reverts your edit. You have now discovered a Most Interested Person.
  3. Discuss the changes you would like to make with this Most Interested Person, perhaps using other forms of dispute resolution as needed, and reach a consensus. Apply the consensus. When reverts have stopped, and parties all agree, you are done.

What BRD is, and is not

Policy shortcut:
SP:BRD-NOT
  • BRD (Bold, Revert, Discuss) is most useful for pages where seeking consensus would be difficult, perhaps because it is not clear which other editors are watching or sufficiently interested in the page, though there are other suitable methods. Bold editing is not a justification for imposing one’s own view, or for tendentious editing without consensus.
  • BRD is a way for editors who have a good grasp of a subject to more rapidly engage discussion and make changes that are probably good in articles where a “discuss first” method of consensus is unlikely to lead to quick progress.
  • BRD is best used by experienced wiki-editors. It requires more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure. You can also try using it in less volatile situations, but take care when doing so. Some have even taken to simply declaring their intent by adding the shortcut [[SP:BRD]] at the front of their edit summary. This seems to help keep people from taking as much offense at proposed changes. In a way, you’re actively provoking another person with an edit they may (strongly) disagree on, so you’re going to need to use all your tact to explain what you’re aiming to achieve.
  • BRD is a guideline commonly used to refer to the principle that a revert should not be reverted again by the same editors until the changes have been discussed, as that could constitute edit warring, which is a policy that all editors must follow.
  • BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don’t like the changes. Don’t invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else’s work or for edit warring: Instead, provide a reason that is based on policies and guidelines, or common sense.
  • BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider not reverting, but discussing. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones. The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD.
  • BRD is not for reverting changes by different editors repeatedly over an extended period to protect your preferred version or ideas. No edit, regardless of how large it is, requires any prior discussion. However, large edits and any edits that are potentially controversial are often the targets of reverts, so — in the spirit of collaborative editing — prior discussion is often wise.
  • Note that BRD does not work for moving articles (changing their titles) because these changes can only be reverted by Administrators (the move leaves the old title as a redirect and only administrators can move a title to an existing redirect). Instead the requested move process has to be used. So extra caution should be observed if a “bold” change of name is contemplated.

Cases for use

Red Ball Express - Truck in the mud

Consensus has gotten stuck. BRD to the rescue!

When other methods have failed, when cooperation has broken down, when it is not clear that a talk page request for discussion will generate any significant response, or when no editor is willing to make changes that might be perceived as controversial, BRD should be considered as an approach to achieving consensus. Examples of these include cases where:

  • Two factions are engaged in an edit war and a bold edit is made as a compromise or middle ground.
Attention niels epting Warning: Engaging in similar behavior by reverting a contribution during an edit war could be seen as disruptive and may garner sanctions. Never continue an edit war as an uninvolved party. A bold change during an edit war should be an adaptive edit to discourage further warring not escalate it. It should never be another revert.
  • Discussion has died out with no agreement being reached.
Discussion is a major part of BRD and must never be skipped. Doing so may be seen as disruptive. If you make a bold edit in regards to any material under discussion and you do not engage on the talkpage, you are not applying BRD properly. Discussion is best applied as soon as a bold edit is made to encourage further talk, but is not required until your edit is questioned, either in an edit summary, with a revert, or else at the discussion itself.
Editing is encouraged where a discussion may have gone nowhere. Add your contribution and see what happens. Be willing to collaborate and discuss further if your addition is removed.
  • Your view differs significantly from a rough consensus on an emotionally loaded subject.
Attention niels epting Warning: New editors come to controversial articles often and make good-faith contributions. Many times a rough consensus of editors has held for some time. A new edit may encourage more or less editors to support a particular direction. This can be a controversial move and can create disputes. Discussion and change is encouraged in a civil manner.
  • Local consensus is currently opposed to making any changes whatsoever (when pages are frozen, “policy”, or high-profile)
When an article becomes frozen it creates an impression that the article is complete and no further edits are needed. This is not how Scratchpad works. A local consensus to freeze editing cannot override policy
BRD will, in general, fail if
  • There is a (large) pre-existing consensus in the general community against the specific change you’d like to make
  • There is a pre-existing dispute on the page, by editors with entrenched positions, and you are reigniting a debate that has achieved stalemate without consensus
  • The page is protected. (get the page unprotected)
  • The page is subject to some other access control. (get the control lifted)
  • You lose tempo
  • A single editor is reverting changes because they believe they have ownership of the article
  • Individuals who are uninterested revert bold changes.
BRD will be especially successful where...
  • ... local consensus differs from global consensus, and your goal is to apply global consensus
  • ... people haven’t really thought things through yet.
  • ... people are only discussing policy, and are not applying reasoning or trying to negotiate consensus (see above under “haven't thought things through”)
  • In short: Boldly negotiating where no-one has negotiated before.

Process

Making bold edits sometimes draws a response from an interested editor, someone who may have the article on their watchlist. If no one responds, you have silent consensus to continue editing. If your edit is reverted, the BRD cycle has been initiated by the reverting editor.

After someone reverts your change, thus taking a stand for the existing version, you can proceed toward a consensus with the challenging editor through discussion on the article’s talk page. While discussing the disputed content, neither editor should revert or change the content being discussed until a compromise or consensus is reached. Each pass through the cycle may find a new, interested editor to work with, or a new issue being disputed. If you follow the process as it is intended each time, eventually you should be able to form consensus with all parties. As such, BRD is, in general, not an end unto itself: It moves the process past a blockage, and helps get people back to cooperative editing.

After a while, if the BRD process works as desired (sometimes it does not), people will begin to refrain from outright reversion, and edits will start to flow more naturally.

Details

For each step in the cycle, here are some points to remember.

Bold

  • Stay focused: Make only the changes you absolutely need to. Bold doesn’t have to be big, and keeping your edit focused is more likely to yield results than making an over-reaching change.
  • Try to make the edit and its explanation simultaneously: Many people will first make an edit, and then explain it on the talk page. Somehow there will always be some fast-off-the-hip reverter who manages to revert you right in the middle, before you have time to complete your explanation. To try to prevent this, reverse the order, first edit the talk page, and then make your edit immediately afterward. This way your explanation will already be there at the moment of the expected revert, and you can link to it in the edit summary. Don’t hesitate between the two actions though, since for some reason people tend to be accused of bad faith if they do that. Best of all, if the page has little activity right now, you might be able to prepare edits to the article and to the talk page, and save them simultaneously.
  • Expect strong resistance, even hostility: Deliberately getting people to revert or respond to you feels a bit like disruption. Trying to change things certainly does, even when it’s an obvious change for the better! If you do this cycle perfectly, most people will grudgingly accept you. Do it less than perfectly, and they will certainly be mad at you. Do it wrong, and they will hate your guts.

Revert

  • Rather than reverting, try to respond with your own BOLD edit if you can: If you disagree with an edit, but can see a way to modify it rather than reverting it, do so. The other disputant may respond with yet another bold edit in an ongoing edit cycle. Avoid the revert stage for as long as possible.
  • In the edit summary of your revert, include a link to SP:BRD to inform an inexperienced editor of the method, or just ask that they offer their edit for discussion on the talk page. People feel more cooperative if you let them know that you’re willing to hear them make a case for their change. Otherwise, a revert can seem brusque.
  • A revert of your revert may mean your edit broke an established consensus: Move to the next stage: Discuss.
  • Revert-wars do not help build consensus: Try to avoid reverting a revert yourself. Go to the talk page to learn why you were reverted, or to try to get the reverting party to unrevert themselves, and/or get them to make an edit themselves.
  • If people start making non-revert changes again, you are done: The normal editing cycle has been restored.

Discuss

  • Adhere to Wikiquette and civility guidelines: The easiest way to intensify this cycle and make it unbreakable is to be uncivil. Try to lead by example and keep your partner in the same mindset.
  • Talk with one or at most two partners at once. As long as the discussion is moving forward, do not feel the need to respond to everyone, as this increases the chance of discussion losing focus and going far afield. Stay on point and pick your responses. If discussion dies off, you can always go back and get yourself reverted again to find (or refind) other interested parties.
  • There is no such thing as a consensus version: Your own major edit, by definition, differs significantly from the existing version, meaning the existing version is no longer a consensus version. There is, consequently, no requirement that “the consensus version”, or “the long-standing version”, or any other version of the page be visible during the discussions. If you successfully complete this cycle, then you will have a new consensus version. If you fail, you will have a different kind of consensus version.
  • Do not accept “policy”, “consensus”, or “procedure” as valid reasons for a revert: These sometimes get worn in on consensus-based wikis. You are disagreeing, that is okay. Do not back off immediately, BUT:
    • Listen very carefully: You are trying to get the full and considered views of those who care enough to disagree with your edit. If you do not listen, and do not try to find consensus, you are wasting everyone’s time. You should not accept, “It’s policy, live with it.”
    • Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions. So, if you want to get changes to stick, both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.
  • Discuss on a talk page: Don’t assume that an edit summary can constitute “discussion”: There is no way for others to respond. You can use the article’s talk page (preferred), or the editor’s user talk page, but one or the other is the proper forum for the discussion component of the BRD cycle.

Bold (again)

  • Let the other editor apply agreed-upon changes. If he or she doesn’t want to, that’s okay, but be sure to offer. The offer alone shows deference and respect. If that editor accepts: (1) the history will show who made the change; (2) the other editor will have control over the precise wording (keeping you from applying a change different from the one agreed upon); and (3) such a policy prevents you from falling afoul of the three-revert rule.
  • Assume this revision will not be the final version. You do not have to get it all done in one edit. If you can find consensus on some parts, make those changes, and let them settle. This will give everyone a new point to build from. Having completed one successful cycle, you may also find it easier to get traction for further changes, or you may find you have reached a reasonable compromise and can stop.

Edit warring

  • Do not edit war. The BRD cycle does not contain another “R” after the “D”. Discussion and a move toward consensus must occur before starting the cycle again. If one skips the Discussion part, then restoring one’s edit is a hostile act of edit warring and is not only uncollaborative, but could incur sanctions, such as a temporary block. The objective is to seek consensus, not force one’s own will upon other editors. That never works.
  • However, don’t get stuck on the discussion. Try to move the discussion towards making a new and different bold edit as quickly as possible. One should seek to have an iterative cycle going on the page itself where people “try this"” or “try that” and just try to see what sticks best.

Attention niels epting Warning: Repetitively doing this can easily violate the 3RR policy and get good-faith editors blocked even during a productive editing exchange. Any such edits must be clear attempts to try another solution, not ones that have been tried and rejected. If you have reached three reverts within a 24 hr period — 3RR bright-line rule — do not edit that content in any manner that reverts any content, in whole or in part, even as little as a single word, for over 24 hours. Doing so just past the 24-hour period could be seen as gaming the system and sanctions may still be applied.

Notes

  • If an issue is already under discussion or was recently discussed, people may take offense if you boldly ignore the discussion, especially if you make a change away from a version arrived at through consensus, to an earlier or suggested non-consensual version. Ignoring earlier consensus is in general not a wise approach!
  • Note that, due to the nature of Scratchpad being an open source platform where everyone can edit, a Bold, revert, discuss cycle may sometimes begin naturally, without either editor even realizing it. Once begun, it’s purpose requires that no revert be reverted. If this happens, something akin to stalling an aircraft happens. If you’re not feeling up to it, it might be best to walk away for a while. Unlike the immediate danger of an aircraft plummeting to the ground, Scratchpad will be here awhile, so don’t panic: You can always come back later. Else, if you have the energy and the time, use the suggestions on this page to “pull out”. Then continue working as per consensus.
  • If you attempt to apply Bold-Revert-Discuss two or more times in quick succession, you are in danger of violating the principle of seeking consensus, and you might just end up in a revert-war with the first responder. Take it one at a time.

See also


Wikipedia.png This page uses content from Wikipedia. The original article was at Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle.
The list of authors can be seen in the page history.
As with Scratchpad, the text of Wikipedia is available under the Creative Commons Licence.

Footnotes

  1. See also Scratchpad:Revert only when necessary as a guide to preventing excessive reverting.

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