[11:06] Smoke Wijaya is Online [11:06] Rin Tae is Online [11:07] Smoke Wijaya: I wonder whats wrong Chosen [11:07] Rin Tae: might be problems with the connection [11:07] You: indeed [11:07] Chosen Raymaker is safe on laptop now [11:08] Smoke Wijaya: ok good [11:08] You: no one else showing up, hmm [11:08] Smoke Wijaya: alright, I dont know why we are always the only ones here....while several others are online... [11:09] You: have you sent a message in group IM? [11:09] Rin Tae: yes´s the same with the forum [11:09] Smoke Wijaya: just did Chosen [11:09] You: ok [11:09] Smoke Wijaya: but I do know that I am a bit disappointed... [11:09] You: yes [11:10] You: which brings us on to the publicity campaign? [11:10] Rin Tae: and we dont´t build this all here just for us three [11:11] Rin Tae: but as for publicity campaign. I would start with open discussion meetings [11:11] You: yes [11:11] You: advertised in events [11:11] Rin Tae: sure [11:12] You: i dont know what we can do to increase participation beyond merely increasing membership [11:13] Rin Tae: I hope that through those meetings we get some intersted people .. it was how I started to do such things [11:13] You: we need to 'trigger' our members somehow [11:14] You: Rin: indeed, but its a more general problem i think [11:14] You: we will need broad public interest eventually i mean [11:15] Smoke Wijaya: *sigh* [11:15] Rin Tae: sure . but that is something we can only achieve when the public knows us and our goals [11:16] You: but those things doesnt seem to be enough, even to our own members [11:16] Smoke Wijaya: yes, lets have those public discussions and events, like parties [11:17] Smoke Wijaya: we cannot do more to enable members to participate....I think [11:17] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, all channels are open... [11:17] Smoke Wijaya: everything is public... [11:17] You: but maybe the message isnt clear? [11:18] Rin Tae: yes .. I rather hope for new members that would be willing to participate [11:18] Smoke Wijaya: but even our own members indeed do not even comment or attend a meeting (not even once in a while) [11:18] Smoke Wijaya: maybe Chosen... [11:18] Smoke Wijaya: maybe it is to complicated for the sheep brain. [11:18] Smoke Wijaya: I am sorry, that I did not mean... [11:18] You: exactly [11:18] You: hehe [11:18] You: we share your frustration [11:18] Smoke Wijaya: but I really dont understand it. [11:18] Rin Tae: we can rewrite it again .. even if I don´t know where to change something [11:19] You: we wouldnt need to rewrite the aims imo [11:19] Rin Tae: I think it´s just SL .. people see it .. people do something they like, then they move on to another thing [11:19] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:20] Smoke Wijaya: "its just a game" [11:20] Smoke Wijaya: even in groups like us... [11:20] You: but games has rules, right [11:20] Rin Tae: maybe it´s not ´just a game´ but it offers new possibilities everywhere [11:20] You: and the rules are flawed [11:21] Smoke Wijaya: yes... [11:21] You: we have to make people see this [11:22] Smoke Wijaya: well, lets give this a rest fo4r a moment, and maybe continue talking about the actual public events we want [11:22] Rin Tae: yes [11:22] You: if they keep doing other stuff in SL, eventually there wont be an SL, rougly speaking [11:22] You: ok [11:23] Rin Tae: yes yes [11:23] Rin Tae: sooo .. I think the best events for the start are partys and discussions [11:23] Smoke Wijaya: agreed [11:24] Rin Tae: a party .. every two weeks and a weekly discussion meeting for the start [11:24] You: agree [11:25] Smoke Wijaya: agreed [11:25] Smoke Wijaya: we could have the discussion about the different topics of our campaigns [11:26] Rin Tae: yes [11:26] Smoke Wijaya: so that we also have input from other people maybe [11:26] Smoke Wijaya: maybe [11:26] You: i think its critical that those events has a purpose, however [11:26] You: once we have peoples interest, we need to put it to good use [11:27] Rin Tae: yes .. discussions concentrating about how to orgenize comunities in a virtual world [11:27] Smoke Wijaya: yes Chosen, but socialise is also a purpose, because in Sl you do need some kind of community feel [11:27] You: otherwise they will just leave again or go idle [11:27] Smoke Wijaya: ow sure, when the interest is there, we should take care we keep on track and speed [11:27] Smoke Wijaya: or speed up [11:27] You: indeed [11:28] Rin Tae: if it is intersting, they will return [11:28] Smoke Wijaya: but also when they had a good conversation or debate [11:28] Rin Tae: as I said .. when it is intersting [11:28] You: it will only remain interesting if we keep moving - no 2 events must be the same [11:28] Rin Tae: that´s for sure [11:29] You: we have to make those attending feel part of an actual movement which is getting somewhere [11:29] Rin Tae: yes [11:30] Smoke Wijaya nods [11:30] Rin Tae: we should be able to do it I think [11:30] Smoke Wijaya: hmm, Molen just spawned here...but is now offline...wonder if he crashed [11:30] Smoke Wijaya: and if it is something on our land then... [11:30] You: hmm [11:30] Rin Tae: I saw him .. and he didn´t moved for some time, so I think he crashed [11:30] You: griefers you mean? [11:31] Smoke Wijaya: no... [11:31] Rin Tae: a server problem .. but I have no problems tonight [11:31] Rin Tae: (so far) [11:31] Smoke Wijaya: I also dont have problems [11:31] Smoke Wijaya: well, never had here yet I think, since new land...not worse then anywwhere else [11:31] You: my laptop seems stable for now also [11:32] Rin Tae: and I saw, that when I´m crashing constantly, then the problem is more likely in my connection [11:32] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:32] Smoke Wijaya: hwoever, I am experiencing heavy chatlag atm [11:33] Rin Tae: but back to the events [11:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:33] Smoke Wijaya: but we need to make sure our land is welcoming before we start those [11:33] Rin Tae: I will be leading discussions at the consicios lounge again by the way [11:34] Rin Tae: yes .. it will be when it´s ready [11:34] Smoke Wijaya: ok is suddenl very active again [11:34] Smoke Wijaya: niuce [11:34] Smoke Wijaya: nice* [11:34] You: our land already looks very good imo [11:34] Rin Tae: I know .. Soli is back and you know that she has some BIG orgenizing talent [11:34] You: what needs to be done still? [11:35] Smoke Wijaya: yes she has [11:35] Rin Tae: Molen is back [11:35] Smoke Wijaya: Chosen, make it livable sao to speak...almost only empty buildings now [11:35] You: ah ok [11:35] Rin Tae: and I still need a good idea for the connections in the building .. what kind of texture should be there? [11:36] You: i like the light wooden floor [11:36] Rin Tae shouts: Hi Molen [11:36] Smoke Wijaya: I am not sure either Rin... [11:36] Smoke Wijaya: but I did change the left building, the crosssection, a bit [11:36] Rin Tae: how did you changed it? [11:37] Smoke Wijaya: well, how to explain... [11:37] Rin Tae: I´ll look at it later [11:37] Rin Tae: or rather . I cam to it for moment [11:38] You: you made an arch-formed entrance [11:38] You: looks good [11:38] You: i was just about to ask about that [11:38] Rin Tae: I like it [11:38] You: the transparent parts looks a bit fragile still [11:38] Rin Tae: you should make it on the other side too [11:38] You: agree [11:39] Smoke Wijaya is Offline [11:40] You: another crash casualty - something does seem to be wrong with the sim [11:40] Molen Oppewall: Yeah, it's on the mainland. [11:40] Smoke Wijaya is Online [11:41] You: welcome Molen [11:41] You: wb Smoke [11:41] Molen Oppewall: Hello people. [11:41] Smoke Wijaya: *sigh* thanks [11:41] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Molen [11:41] Molen Oppewall: Ello'. [11:41] You: we're discussing publicity and events at the moment, Molen [11:42] You: [11:37] Smoke Wijaya: well, how to explain... [11:37] Rin Tae: I´ll look at it later [11:37] Rin Tae: or rather . I cam to it for moment [11:38] You: you made an arch-formed entrance [11:38] You: looks good [11:38] You: i was just about to ask about that [11:38] Rin Tae: I like it [11:38] You: the transparent parts looks a bit fragile still [11:38] Rin Tae: you should make it on the other side too [11:38] You: agree [11:39] Smoke Wijaya is Offline [11:42] Molen Oppewall: Cool. [11:42] Smoke Wijaya: that camming made me crash...NVidia :( [11:42] Smoke Wijaya: my biggest problem... [11:43] You: SL has trouble with nv cards? [11:43] Rin Tae is Offline [11:43] Smoke Wijaya: I just cut off part of the prims of Rin...and made it different [11:43] Smoke Wijaya: yes Chosen, or other way around [11:43] Smoke Wijaya: something with memory leak.... [11:43] You: 3 down, 1 to go [11:43] You: ok [11:43] Smoke Wijaya: something with memory at least [11:44] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, where were we? [11:44] Smoke Wijaya: twice a week a party, once a week a public discussions [11:44] You: land design [11:44] Smoke Wijaya: ow ok, yes [11:44] Smoke Wijaya: in the sense that it has to be finsihed before we start those events [11:44] You: yes [11:44] Smoke Wijaya: what do you think so far of the new land design Molen? [11:45] OOC Textiness whispers: Type /22 to speak in OOC terms. [11:45] Rin Tae is Online [11:45] Smoke Wijaya: basically all buildings are here now [11:45] You: wb Rin [11:45] Smoke Wijaya: welcome back RIn. [11:45] Rin Tae: hi .. that crash was my foult .. I moved the camere too fast [11:45] Molen Oppewall: Nice, but I have to say I like the feel of the openess from last time. [11:45] Smoke Wijaya: Nvidia video card? [11:46] Smoke Wijaya: Molen, outside is open [11:46] Molen Oppewall: I fell like im sitting in a transparent egg. [11:46] Rin Tae: I think so [11:46] Molen Oppewall: xD [11:46] You: thats a good thing, right? :) [11:46] Rin Tae: sure it is [11:46] You: at least i like this dome very much [11:46] Molen Oppewall: But, I like the minimilist interior. [11:46] Rin Tae: but I will add some lights around the sitting area I think .. to make it nicer [11:47] Smoke Wijaya: brb, please go on [11:47] You: the beautiful Kaskitayo skyline, with the mall in the distance [11:47] Molen Oppewall: The egg gives a sense of A avatar reborn. [11:47] Molen Oppewall: a* [11:47] Rin Tae: but at least it´s more comfartable now ;) [11:48] You: indeed [11:48] Rin Tae: soo .. where have we been regarding the events? [11:49] You: we was discussing what must be completed on the land before the events [11:49] Smoke Wijaya: (dejavu - it feels like I already typed that groupIM once) [11:50] Rin Tae: we wanted to do it from the start ..just said, that we first finish the land redesign [11:50] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:51] You: right [11:51] Smoke Wijaya: alright, I think we should decide on when to start them when we know clearer when we will be finished here [11:51] Rin Tae: soo ... the building is ready .. still missing textures, but as fast as we have found a good one, it will be done fast . the lover floor still needs to be worked on, but I think the biggest work is already done [11:51] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:52] Smoke Wijaya: want to decide on data to start those events now? [11:52] Rin Tae: no .. I would really first finish the land [11:53] You: the lower floor has to be completed before we throw any parties in my opinion [11:53] You: agree with Rin [11:53] Smoke Wijaya: agreed [11:53] Smoke Wijaya: Molen, do you have a proposal for a campaign, a topic you want SLDM to adress? [11:53] Molen Oppewall: Big brother. [11:54] Smoke Wijaya: in what sense? [11:55] Molen Oppewall: This is a second life, why can't we hold the supposed morals of western civilisation and stop being fucking watched. [11:55] Smoke Wijaya: thats the norm in US Molen [11:55] You: By whom? LL? [11:55] Molen Oppewall: Norm in UK. [11:55] Molen Oppewall: The most filmed place in the world. [11:55] Smoke Wijaya: and we are on the internet, and on the servers of LL, so we cannot do anything about that.... [11:56] Smoke Wijaya: but I dont think they activily do surveillance and tap residents [11:56] Molen Oppewall: Heh. [11:56] You: technically we can - with cryptography [11:56] Rin Tae: yes .. we are leaving anough data around for everybody to collect [11:56] Molen Oppewall: Campaign title - make your own rules. [11:57] Molen Oppewall: I mean it's your world. [11:57] Molen Oppewall: Go to sandboxes and such. [11:57] Smoke Wijaya: yes sure, thats what its all about, selfrule [11:57] Rin Tae: but we could (should) put up some information cards saying, that one should be aware of this .. one can not say it enough times in my opinion [11:57] Smoke Wijaya: good point [11:58] Molen Oppewall: But, what can we do what other groups and us havn't tried before. [11:58] Rin Tae: try it again .. maybe we will succed, maybe the group that will come after us [11:58] Molen Oppewall: Terrorism, parades, leaflets, mass demonstrations........ the list goes on. [11:58] Smoke Wijaya: yes [11:58] Smoke Wijaya: and often caused change or attention in one way or another [11:59] Smoke Wijaya: impact depending on the topic, group, time, place [11:59] Smoke Wijaya: that are all ways of spreading awareness, propaganda [11:59] Rin Tae: the idea of protests in SL is actaully already one shared by many residents I think .. so this is a success [11:59] Smoke Wijaya: they are not the only means [12:00] Smoke Wijaya: we, as you know, now are also busy with designing our own tools, which will enable communties to have more autonomy [12:00] Smoke Wijaya: next to that we should, as Chosen also touched upon last week, when talking about ombudsman, petition and communicate with LL more [12:01] Smoke Wijaya: not such, IMO, that we become compeltely in their power, and revisionist [12:01] You: agreed [12:01] Rin Tae: szre [12:01] Smoke Wijaya: but still...making sure "they" also know of us [12:02] Smoke Wijaya: the terrorism-path we took at SLLA actually made a lot of media attention Molen [12:02] Smoke Wijaya: that was strategically pretty neat... [12:02] Smoke Wijaya: in couple of months hundreds of people [12:02] Molen Oppewall: I remember. [12:02] Molen Oppewall: I was in them once. [12:02] Smoke Wijaya: I know... [12:02] Rin Tae: yes .. but it was also a path that made me think of it as complete nonsense [12:02] Smoke Wijaya: sure [12:02] Molen Oppewall: I sucked. [12:03] Molen Oppewall: I remember when I first met you. [12:03] You: agree Rin - it cant be productive in the long run [12:03] Molen Oppewall: : | [12:03] Molen Oppewall: Trying to "protest" by standing there naked holding a popgun. [12:03] Smoke Wijaya: Anyway, lets get back to the campaign ideas we had then, because what you just said Molen, is propably adressed in the different topics. [12:04] Rin Tae: hehe.. Smoke naked with a popgun? [12:04] Smoke Wijaya: nah [12:04] Smoke Wijaya: never [12:04] You: :) [12:04] Smoke Wijaya: I alwasy clinged to my Omicron....and laughed about all those guys just joining for the word 'army" and the first thing they do was asking where to get a gun :) [12:05] Smoke Wijaya: because I already saw this was going to kill that org. [12:05] Rin Tae: yes [12:05] Smoke Wijaya: the terrorism and army thing was taken way to serious [12:05] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, lets get back. ontrack here [12:05] You: ok [12:06] You: did we finish events? [12:06] Rin Tae: I think we know what we will do .. we just have to finish building and do it [12:06] Smoke Wijaya: yes [12:07] Rin Tae: and with the AF we also have a long term project [12:07] Smoke Wijaya: yes [12:07] Smoke Wijaya: I want to know of you guys what about AR-ssytem? [12:08] Smoke Wijaya: does that wiki Robin Linden promised already exist? [12:08] Rin Tae: it is intersting .. se we should watch it [12:09] Smoke Wijaya: what do you think about calling out to refrain from any abuse reporting, when it does not consider a simwide attack or gridattack? [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: 1. to not reinforce the "government" we ask to hand over power [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: 2. to start solve our own problems between eachother [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: which can be connected to AF [12:10] Rin Tae: there is still a problem about griefers .. they should be reported .. as long as there is no way for the residents to fight them [12:11] You: scammers too [12:11] Smoke Wijaya: yes, thats what i talked about with simwide attacks, like those of PN [12:11] Molen Oppewall: There is a way, grief them back, oh but that would be against the TOS. [12:11] Smoke Wijaya: when someone shoots you in a safe region, you AR them? [12:11] Smoke Wijaya: Molen, anti-griefers turn into griefers themselves...not because they grief the griefers, but they impose there "law" on the community [12:12] Molen Oppewall: Linden, need to set up a juristictional governing body. [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: No, we, the SL community, need to do that [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: imo [12:12] You: yes [12:12] Molen Oppewall: Yes, but give it to the residents. [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: they will never [12:12] Rin Tae: if the SL comunity would support such thing, then the SL comunity would need a SL police too [12:13] Smoke Wijaya: they are continously "outsourcing" the Ar-system, and welcome areas... [12:13] Molen Oppewall: Residents older than two years and that have suffiecient experience in SL can be the "police". [12:13] Smoke Wijaya: no [12:14] Rin Tae: it would require a full set of comunity laws and I don´t think there can be an agreement reached on that [12:14] Smoke Wijaya: not in my view at least...I mean, being here two years and have "experience" with the tools/platform, does NOT entail he somehow knows what is right... [12:14] You: some basic laws nearly everyone can agree on i'm sure [12:15] You: agree Smoke - the intelligence must rest in the system, not in an arbitrary criteria like SL age [12:16] Molen Oppewall: There is no solution as people can separate themselves from SL. And as the only feasable way to actually "police" is through a admin Linden. We will never be able to. [12:16] Smoke Wijaya: I havent met them on that side yet, but I am sure there are some creative brown caots around, script and building wise [12:16] Molen Oppewall: And guys, I have a idea. [12:16] Molen Oppewall: Lets ask big Phil himself. [12:16] Rin Tae: brown coats? [12:16] Molen Oppewall: My next office hours: Monday 9/10, 9amSLT, Waterhead 244,20. [12:16] Molen Oppewall: Off his profile. [12:16] Smoke Wijaya: we need to *make* LL adopt a certain policy, because they are pushed that direction by popular demand [12:17] Smoke Wijaya: 9/10? [12:17] Smoke Wijaya: thats probably two years old or something [12:17] Molen Oppewall shrugs. [12:17] Smoke Wijaya: Philip Linden doesnt hold offcie hours ion LL [12:18] Rin Tae: the lindens will push themselves in that direction if they keep SL growing like this... it will be too big to handle and they will have to open it then [12:18] Smoke Wijaya: ow, what about that proposal of me btw, to shift this meeting one hour further? so as ot be able to attend the offcie houors of Robin Linden? [12:18] You: office hours are just for show anyway :) [12:18] You: agree with that proposal Smoke [12:18] Rin Tae: yes ... this time is good too [12:18] Molen Oppewall: All who agree say I. [12:18] Molen Oppewall: I [12:19] You: I [12:19] Rin Tae: I [12:19] Molen Oppewall: Guess that's passed. [12:19] Rin Tae: seems so [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: what do you guys think we shoul do concerning AR-system? nothing? [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: do you share my concerns? [12:20] You: i share your concerns [12:21] Rin Tae: I do share your concernes, but I also see the oportunituies [12:21] Molen Oppewall: Don't know what it is? [12:21] You: let me just outline the ideas we discussed for anyone who was not present [12:21] You: we have discussed designing a user-directed AR-system to replace the current understaffed LL-directed system [12:22] Smoke Wijaya: well, at least one that becomes transparent and public [12:22] You: we would then demand LL to delegate some or all resposibility for AR handling to this new system [12:22] You: yes Smoke [12:23] Smoke Wijaya: the Ar-system already becomes more user-directed, they are beta-testing that can opt in to get the AR's send on their estate directly to them... [12:23] Smoke Wijaya: but users is here estate-owners [12:24] Smoke Wijaya: there would still be no transparency, accountability, recourse [12:24] You: indeed [12:24] Smoke Wijaya: and... [12:24] Smoke Wijaya: the mainland, if it is true what they have said several times in interviews, then the mainland stays under the governanc eof LL [12:25] Molen Oppewall: I vote the mainand needs to be updated. [12:25] Molen Oppewall: It's as laggy as hell. [12:26] Smoke Wijaya is Offline [12:26] Molen Oppewall: Islands for the win. [12:26] Molen Oppewall: That, is why the mainland should be re-installed. [12:26] Molen Oppewall points to where Smoke was. [12:27] Rin Tae looks and waits for him to reapear [12:27] Smoke Wijaya is Online [12:27] You: :) [12:27] Smoke Wijaya: *sigh* [12:27] Rin Tae: okay .. I think I heard a scream [12:27] Smoke Wijaya: Chosen, can you save the chatlog now before you crash also? [12:28] You: sure [12:28] Smoke Wijaya: great [12:28] You: AR [12:28] You: what to do? [12:28] Rin Tae: I may be a bit optimistic, and think that it is at least a start [12:29] Smoke Wijaya: what is at least a start? [12:29] Rin Tae: the fact, that the lindens are giving at least some part of power to the residents [12:30] Rin Tae: it´s not enough and not to all, but they are moving [12:30] Smoke Wijaya: they have to, in face of the open source grid [12:30] Smoke Wijaya: but as saidm, the mainland wil stay under their governance [12:30] Rin Tae: let´s see how long [12:30] Smoke Wijaya: and estate owner on mainland is LL [12:31] Molen Oppewall: Heh, this could be a turning point. [12:31] You: what do say about drafting a new AR system [12:31] Molen Oppewall: People could set upn there own damn country's. [12:31] You: transparent and possibly user-directed [12:31] Molen Oppewall: up* [12:31] Smoke Wijaya: the mainland will stay Second Life, the virtual world, the rest is the platform, the grid [12:31] Smoke Wijaya: to become the next web [12:31] Rin Tae: if they open the grid and loose direct control of the islands .. who will stay on the mainland if there is the possibility to get something like a really own SL island [12:31] Smoke Wijaya: I [12:32] You: opening the grid is in the long term anyway [12:32] Rin Tae: of course it would depend on how much it would cost [12:32] Smoke Wijaya: I choose LL, when it is reformed enough, as 'governor" [12:32] You: until then the faulty AR system can still get us permabanned [12:32] Smoke Wijaya: heck, why dont they split up the company... [12:32] Smoke Wijaya: and make one part the governance of SL, public [12:33] You: and the other part services? towards businesses [12:34] Smoke Wijaya: what has SL the world to do with business, other then that it are also residents/users? [12:34] Smoke Wijaya: busninesses* [12:34] Rin Tae: maybe they just haven´t thought of that yet.... or just think about buisness [12:34] Smoke Wijaya: the latter [12:34] You: ? [12:34] Molen Oppewall: Because second life is a capatlist economy. [12:35] Rin Tae: it is a capitalist world that can be so much more [12:35] Smoke Wijaya: ok, so nothing on AR-system? [12:35] You: hmm [12:36] You: we are not communicating i think :) [12:36] You: [12:31] You: what do say about drafting a new AR system [12:36] Rin Tae: I don´t know .. we can protest against it as it is something for estate owners only .... or welcome it as it shows that the Lindens are maybe slowly moving in the right diresction [12:37] Smoke Wijaya: Rin, I am not talkig about that...that was just to show that user-directedness doesnt entail transparency and accountabilty in handling disputes in VW's [12:37] Smoke Wijaya: it would just make many more LL's [12:37] You: yes [12:37] Smoke Wijaya: many more dictators... [12:37] Rin Tae: ahh .. okay [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: just like opensourcing somehting doesnt entail democarcy [12:38] You: the keywords are transparency and accountabilty [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: which the OS-community wants us to believe [12:38] Rin Tae: it´s always the users who need to do it [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: yes, within a preconfigured structure [12:39] You: the OS community wants us to believe that? [12:39] Smoke Wijaya: well, maybe I am going to far, and black&white, but many opensource scripters, when talking about avatr-rights and democartric structure in metaverse, start about opensourcing the servercode [12:40] Smoke Wijaya: as THE solution [12:40] Rin Tae: it is in their believe as they see it from the perspective of people working with it [12:41] Smoke Wijaya: well, anyway, I understand that opensourcing makes the service ot reliable on one anymore... [12:42] Smoke Wijaya: but that doesnt mean that within the enclaves, whether that is owned by LL or another private person, there is democratic structure and some protection of rights and accountability of the one watching us. [12:42] You: indeed [12:42] Smoke Wijaya: and when those enclaves are owned by a public org, good. [12:43] Smoke Wijaya: but that idea that people can *just* leave from migrate to a better one, instead of trying to change somehting form within, is not what I have. [12:43] Rin Tae: sure .. I meen look at AF .. we said we want it to be of as broadly use as possible, but this would include undemocratic comunities too [12:43] Smoke Wijaya: yes... [12:44] Smoke Wijaya: but the fact that the communities know the possibilty to do dofferently is in that tool, might urge them to demand change [12:44] Smoke Wijaya: differently* [12:44] You: what should we do with respect to AR, in your opinion, Smoke? [12:45] Smoke Wijaya: what I already said: calling out to refrain/boycot that system [12:45] Molen Oppewall: I am really tired and need some downtime, so I will go now. [12:46] Molen Oppewall: Bye all. [12:46] You: see you Molen [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: ok, Molen, you can read up on the minutes ont he forum [12:46] Rin Tae: see you [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: goodnight man, see you around [12:46] Molen Oppewall: Thanks all, bye. [12:46] Rin Tae: okay .. I think to ask to not to use it (as long as there is not a very good reason) is a good way [12:47] Smoke Wijaya: (on another note, I wish i could stream music, to let you hear this live set of michel de hey :) ) [12:47] Smoke Wijaya: yes of course, when PN comes by and trashes sims wiht selfreplicating objects....Ar those fucks [12:47] Smoke Wijaya: AR* [12:47] Rin Tae: next time then [12:48] You: what do we achieve by this? the boycott [12:48] Smoke Wijaya: but actually we shouldnt have to in those cases, if you ask me, a non-techie [12:49] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, doesnt LL have a way that servers "feel" there are selfreplicating objects grinding it to a halt? [12:49] You: they have some real-time grid analysis software yes [12:49] Rin Tae: it could be difficult .. but I think a massive rise in prims would be noticable [12:50] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, what would we get with that boycot...well, what I said: 1. not help enforcing the system that is rotten and abused, and not transparent. 2. so that the community starts thinking about solving disputes in other ways [12:50] Smoke Wijaya: by themselves. [12:51] Smoke Wijaya: and Molen started here about SL police...but I dont see how that is relevant [12:51] Smoke Wijaya: I know he luvs guns [12:52] Smoke Wijaya: also as sign to LL, if that is possible, I dont know how much people would have to refrain from it... [12:52] Rin Tae: I said the thing about Police btw (even if I don´t beleive it would work in SL) [12:52] Smoke Wijaya: but in the meantime we should demand changes, to transparency [12:53] Smoke Wijaya: and bring forward ways for that [12:53] Rin Tae: that would be good of course [12:53] You: a sign to LL? wouldnt they just be happy? means they can cut down on governance staff [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: ok [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: then we call out to massively send in abuse reports [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: :)) [12:54] You: against Phillip Linden :) [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: but I always, out of principle, bhecause it is rotten, rfrained from AR [12:55] Rin Tae: yes .. we can´t move .. we are griefed by lag [12:55] Smoke Wijaya: sorry for all those typos agin [12:55] Rin Tae: I would be for ignoring it I think [12:55] You: it would be for changing it [12:56] Rin Tae: that of course [12:56] Smoke Wijaya: yes [12:56] Smoke Wijaya: but I want people to stop abuse the system, adn want LL to change it such that abuse is brought back to a minimum [12:57] You: indeed [12:57] Rin Tae: if it is only used for abuse, then they will have to change it [12:57] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, people AR other people for walking with a cock attached tyhrough PG, while it is a newb he hasnt any clue [12:57] Smoke Wijaya: ok...then how to change it? [12:58] Rin Tae: what is intersting since I have never done such things even as a newb [12:58] You: i think we should draft a new system, detailing where and how transparency and accountability will be implemented [12:58] Smoke Wijaya: I dont believe in talking/lobbying the lindens and that that is all that takes for change [12:58] Smoke Wijaya: sure, I dont say we should just say NO [12:59] Smoke Wijaya: we should come with solutions [12:59] You: exactly [12:59] Rin Tae: can we make it as a part of AF? [12:59] You: no hardly [12:59] You: its a different system entirely [12:59] You: wouldnt make sense [12:59] Rin Tae: hmmm [13:00] Rin Tae: it was just an idea as I thought that a abuse raport system of some sorts might be a usefull tool for comunities [13:01] You: why not just start a new project? akin to AF [13:01] You: indeed, but technically i think the two things are too far apart at this point [13:01] Rin Tae: okay [13:04] You: are you both with this idea? to start a new project, drafting a new AR system, and then demand LL to implement it [13:05] Smoke Wijaya: I guess so yes, but are there not other parties already doing this maybe....probably MR has also something like it, on the law-side? [13:05] Rin Tae: it would be intersting .. but I don´t see much chnace that they would implement it .. but I don´t care about chances, so let´s do it [13:05] Rin Tae: we could ask them [13:05] Smoke Wijaya: but that is within MR, I understand that. [13:06] Smoke Wijaya: hmm, dangerous grounds :) [13:06] You: i dont think they have something like it. but sure we can ask [13:06] Smoke Wijaya: if they do have a good alternative, should we then demand of LL to implement theirs? [13:07] Smoke Wijaya: that would be making of MR the official governement [13:07] Rin Tae: only if they stay in control of it [13:07] Smoke Wijaya: if we would not be carefull [13:08] Smoke Wijaya: no, not necesarry Rin...within abuse report system the laws are used...and those are created by MR [13:08] Smoke Wijaya: in that case [13:08] Rin Tae: hmm .. okay [13:08] You: i think its 2 different things really [13:08] You: AR concerns TOS/CS violations, MR concerns MR laws [13:08] Smoke Wijaya: at leats imo [13:09] Smoke Wijaya: yes, Chosen, thanks for that way easier to understand explanation. [13:09] You: :) [13:09] Rin Tae: hehe.. yes I need the easy stuff ;) [13:09] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, get tired of myself sometimes. [13:09] You: lol [13:09] Smoke Wijaya: but still cannot find normal sentences on t hat moment [13:10] You: np [13:10] Smoke Wijaya: ok, shall we post that as part of the proposal I started oin the forum abbout AR? [13:10] Smoke Wijaya: to design an alternative one... [13:11] You: imo yes [13:11] You: we should find a name [13:11] You: etc [13:11] Smoke Wijaya: I was thinking, can we somehow make projects such that everyoe can work on it? [13:11] You: get stuff organized and running [13:12] Rin Tae is Offline [13:12] You: in general you mean? [13:12] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, not really... [13:12] You: hmm? [13:13] You: "yeah, not really"? yes, no [13:13] Smoke Wijaya: never mind [13:13] Kristy Laval is Online [13:13] You: the working process within projects should be more open - is this what you are suggestion? [13:13] You: suggesting* [13:13] Rin Tae is Online [13:13] OOC Textiness whispers: Type /22 to speak in OOC terms. [13:14] You: wb Rin [13:14] Rin Tae: hi again [13:14] Smoke Wijaya: well, dont know....what if we had more people that would work on software of AF? [13:14] Smoke Wijaya: how would we do that? [13:14] Smoke Wijaya: how does that work in practice? [13:14] You: they would attend the meetings i attend [13:15] You: we would meet occasinally, without MR, properly [13:16] You: communicate about plans in IM and on forum [13:16] Smoke Wijaya: but how do you colaborate on writing the code? [13:16] You: we would split it into modules [13:16] You: and let someone work on each module [13:16] Smoke Wijaya: like eveyone codes a part [13:17] You: yes [13:17] Rin Tae: I need to go now too .. see you later [13:17] Smoke Wijaya: these kind of projects never work with more people on one module? [13:17] Smoke Wijaya: alright, see you later Rin [13:17] You: see you Rin [13:18] You: Smoke: generally speaking, no [13:18] You: people would be overwriting each others efforts [13:18] Smoke Wijaya: ok [13:18] Smoke Wijaya: ok, well, meetings, and forums we have, so ok...godd [13:19] You: nothing important should be happening in the coding stage anyway [13:19] You: coding is just translating human language specifications into computer code [13:20] Smoke Wijaya: I see, ok. [13:20] You: and the specifications are for everyone to see and comment on [13:20] Smoke Wijaya: well, lets enter this in the AR thread in proposals [13:21] You: enter what exactly? [13:21] Smoke Wijaya: that we think of designing own abuse report system [13:21] You: ok [13:22] Smoke Wijaya: and lest discuss further there [13:22] You: agreed [13:22] You: btw [13:22] Smoke Wijaya: lets talk for a sec about the jira thing, ok? [13:22] Smoke Wijaya: ow, yes? [13:23] You: the product of the AR project would be human language specifications only, as LL has to do the coding [13:23] Smoke Wijaya: ok...I see...didnt think of that [13:23] You: so nothing would be keeping you or Rin from leading such a project [13:23] Smoke Wijaya: ok, then we defitnitly discuss this further on the forum, for now. [13:23] You: lets talk JIRA [13:24] Smoke Wijaya: ok [13:24] Smoke Wijaya: you know what it is? [13:24] You: yes [13:24] You: LL's feature suggestion system [13:24] Smoke Wijaya: yes, and bug reporting system [13:24] You: well JIRA is [13:24] You: ok [13:25] Smoke Wijaya: but also features yes [13:25] You: what about JIRA? [13:25] Smoke Wijaya: it is mostly used for bugs I think atm [13:25] Smoke Wijaya: but ok... [13:25] You: oh ok [13:25] Smoke Wijaya: we all have voting options there [13:25] Smoke Wijaya: but only to vote yes [13:25] Kristy Laval is Offline [13:25] You: yup i know [13:26] Smoke Wijaya: this was also the case with the older feature voting tool [13:26] Smoke Wijaya: alright, when I searched if there already was a request, I saw that Prokofy had done expected. [13:26] You: ok [13:27] Smoke Wijaya: and the comment of the Linden, was that that wasnt possible atm, because they were not faniliar with that plugin that would make that possible [13:27] Smoke Wijaya: for that he said, check atlassian, the creators of jira, and see if it exists,if not, it might need a custom coding job [13:27] You: ok [13:27] Smoke Wijaya: are you famniliar with the architecture of jira? [13:28] You: not really no [13:28] You: i have voted a time or two and posted a few comments [13:28] Smoke Wijaya: I was wondering whether this would be a diffcult, complex task or a fairly easy one...I as non-techie was thinkig the latter... [13:29] You: it sounds easy in my ears as well [13:29] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, the structure for voting is there, right? it just needs more parameters [13:29] Smoke Wijaya: or more data, more values [13:29] Smoke Wijaya: I dont know... [13:29] You: thats what one would expect [13:29] You: but its impossible to tell how it looks on the inside [13:29] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, no-voting is imo necessary for good voting [13:30] Smoke Wijaya: for having a balanced outcome [13:30] You: indeed [13:30] Smoke Wijaya: now when that is possible, we could think of some way, rules, qouta, that LL needs to act on it [13:31] You: yes good point [13:32] Smoke Wijaya: not that this is easy, as it demands similtaniously opening up and reform of LL on different topics... [13:32] Smoke Wijaya: its all aprt of bigger picture... [13:32] Smoke Wijaya: all comes down no accountability of LL and enforcibilty by residents [13:32] Smoke Wijaya: no = to [13:33] You: how is it done now, you know? LL act if they think they have enough votes? [13:33] Smoke Wijaya: just when they like the feature I think, when *they* think it should be handled [13:33] You: ok [13:33] Smoke Wijaya: its them deciding when something is closed, resolved or whatever [13:33] Smoke Wijaya: I thoguht [13:33] Smoke Wijaya: or are other people also able to solve a topic of someone else? [13:34] Smoke Wijaya: I amnot sure aout that one... [13:34] You: JIRA is more of a customer feedback tool now then [13:34] Smoke Wijaya: yeah... [13:34] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, it is LL that decides whether to implemetn soemthing on the grid or not [13:34] You: ok [13:35] You: one important point that i bet you are aware of [13:35] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, even without that public LL, NO-voting would at least give community and pressure groups the opportunity to, public, oppose a feature [13:35] Smoke Wijaya: to voice their opnion [13:35] You: democracy and software engineering is the worlds worst cocktail [13:36] You: engineering must be top-down i mean [13:36] You: fascist [13:36] You: but the fascist can be controlled by democrats [13:38] You: you understand my point, right? know you do [13:38] Smoke Wijaya: yeah... [13:38] You: ok [13:40] You: bu i agree its a good way to express public opinion on features [13:40] You: but* [13:41] You: what do we do about this? JIRA? [13:42] Smoke Wijaya: well, I think that having the ability of NO vote on there is a small pragmatic step to some 'democracy " [13:42] Smoke Wijaya: I still think it can work like pressure....especially when people/groups go campaigning on one topic [13:42] You: yeah [13:43] You: it can be an official medium for communicating with the dev team

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